Errors-To: admin@elephant-talk.com Reply-To: newsletter@elephant-talk.com Sender: moderator@elephant-talk.com Precedence: bulk From: moderator@elephant-talk.com To: newsletter@elephant-talk.com Subject: Elephant Talk #1121 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1121 Saturday, 10 May 2003 Today's Topics: will we survive without Fripp (for awhile) Robert on I'm A Celebrity... Re: The Lost Wages of Norbert Fragg Greatest Drummers stamperdanny- are you just trying to start something? No place for that in this forum Fripp zapped The Power To "Retire" Zappa Bob's Retirement Party Three of a Perfect Pair.... Yo Fripp - thank you! Racist crap Fragg It's Fripp's life I'm a guitarist, get me out of here. Fripp retiring ITCOTCK, C Beefheart OH NO I SPILLED MY HALF-FULL GLASS ALL OVER MY KEYBOARD ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter@elephant-talk.com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin@elephant-talk.com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help@elephant-talk.com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph@sgi.com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 12:23:00 -0700 From: "PT" Subject: will we survive without Fripp (for awhile) Relax, we survived the break up of King Crimson and Fripp's retirement in 1974 or 75.......... we survived the break up of King Crimson in the late 80's................ all things must pass. life will go on - Fripp will go on - he'll be back. Bowie, Townshend, and John Lennon also retired a few times...........and came back. (until some wacko shot John of course) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 23:18:14 +0100 From: Richard Rees Jones Subject: Robert on I'm A Celebrity... I've just finished watching the strangest thing ever - Robert Fripp being interviewed live on TV with Toyah, just after she had been voted off I'm A Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here. It was utterly surreal - in front of an audience of millions, few of whom (I venture to say) would know who he was or would even have heard of King Crimson, Robert sat there, smartly dressed in a black leather jacket, and gamely answered the questions of the two manic presenters of the show. After a little initial frostiness, when he said "why should I sit here talking to you, when my wife is here," he seemed to relax and even to enjoy himself, smiling and laughing as Toyah told the interviewers about her experiences on the show. Next year, I suggest they invite him to be a contestant! Richard Rees Jones ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 06:41:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Eaerth Subject: Re: The Lost Wages of Norbert Fragg > I request that you exercise your Moderative Powers and suppress any > further writings from Mr. Bill Kent. I can barely see through the coffee > encrusting my monitor to type this, and I can no > longer afford to replace my keyboard > each time he channels the elusive spirit of Mr. Fragg. Consider every Norbert Fragg post to have an automatic C&C warning (coffee and cats). In other words, do not read until you've taken care of any coffee (which will be spilled) and cats (which will be frightened) in the area. ===== A comic: http://kevorkian.isfuckingbrilliant.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 09:59:03 -0400 From: "Ed Botti" Subject: Greatest Drummers In response to the Greatest Drummer debate, I would like to throw a couple of names out there, they may not be the best ever, but they are on the list. Neil Peart John Bonham Phil Collins Mike Portnoy Johhny Fay Just my opinion. Edward T. Botti Managing Member The Botti Stadler Group 1070 Highway 34 Suite Q Matawan, NJ 07747 732/290-3338 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 07:55:07 -0700 From: Nancy Mack Subject: stamperdanny- are you just trying to start something? to stamperdanny: I'm not going to give your nasty little post any additional exposure by quoting, but you know who you are! your racist comments are definitely offensive, freedom of speech or not. feel free to step off the planet anytime. most sincerely, nancy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 10:49:11 -0400 From: Dan Cooper Subject: No place for that in this forum In 1119, Stamperdanny@wmconnect.com wrote: "MTV2 used to play a lot of good music, but now the blacks have taken it over. MTV will never stand up to the black community, because they know if they do, they can be charged with racism." This is the wrong forum to discuss race issues, but to say that "...the blacks have taken [MTV] over" IS racist. What a ridiculous comment. MTV is appealing to its target demographic, namely teenagers and early 20-somethings. Hip-hop, soul, and R&B music and culture appeals to this demographic, regardless of race, or perhaps the poster hasn't been to a suburban mall lately. Back in 1983 MTV took more chances, namely because they were still trying to carve a niche in the then-new cable TV market. Their programming was much more diverse and more focused on music videos, not The Real World, Fraternity Life and Jackass, but today MTV is a corporate animal driven solely by profit-margin just like every other TV network. They want to maximize their ratings to sell advertising. They know that fuddy-duddys like the readers of Elephant Talk aren't interested in Britney Spears videos (except, perhaps, for their soft-porn value), and we don't sit in front of the TV for hours hoping to see the Peter Gabriel video for "The Barry Williams Show." To suggest they MTV is pandering to the African American community to avoid a racism charge is nothing more than demagogy at its ugliest. Perhaps Elephant Talk would be better served if this poster kept his racist opinions to himself and stuck to lamenting RF's possible retirement, which, by the way, would be a terrible thing. My 2 cents. Dan Cooper ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 11:02:58 -0500 From: "Craig" Subject: Fripp zapped >Please do not tell me that my musical hero is giving up. I know he is >rather head-strong, and once he makes a decision, that's it, but I wish he >would reconsider. I realize it can be frustrating not being a mainstream >success, but in the long run, isn't it the music that matters? Robert >Fripp and Frank Zappa both changed the way I listened to and appreciated >music. Zappa eventually also took a stance of never performing live again w/ a band. Remember? ~C ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 12:24:28 -0400 From: J A Sontag Subject: The Power To "Retire" I have been reading the comments on Fripp's possible "retirement" with a great deal of interest. I feel now I must point out that NOWHERE (excuse the caps) in the diary entries under "analysis" did he say he was retiring, or ending King Crimson. On the 15th he said: "So, this is a formal acknowledgement that the life of a working player is no longer right for me. Alternatively, I am no longer the right person to be a working player. This is now official: I am in the wrong line of work." Note that on the 17th he said: "I have repeatedly stated I have no plans, nor intention, of making "the next album"." One of the problems with an online diary is that the thought of a moment gets etched in stone. There is no doubt that Robert is tired and frustrated. But the later entry is to me a definite stepping-back, if you will, from the previous entry. The statement that he is "in the wrong line of work" cannot by itself be absolutely construed to mean he is quitting it. I myself feel I am in the wrong line of work; but I don't quit my job, because the bills still have to be paid. Now perhaps money is not an issue for Robert, so that reasoning may not apply. But the later entry seems to me to indicate that he really doesn't want to stop being a musician; he is simply looking for a "better" way to accomplish it. Now while Robert's past shows he is quite capable of putting King Crimson on hiatus whenever he feels it is necessary, it seems very premature to conclude that this is going to occur; it is definitely premature to conclude that we will never hear him play the guitar again. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he is looking on all this commentary (assuming he is still reading ET) with a bit of amusement as to how it takes only a few words to send his "fans" into an uproar. But if I am wrong, if he really does want to retire, then we, as fans, must realize that this is his prerogative, and not necessarily an evil one. If Robert feels he can no longer produce music to the standards he sets for himself (which are high), then he is absolutely right to retire, or go on hiatus. There are many bands out there that have continued on and on well past the point of creativity and relevance, and have become simple nostalgia acts. One need only think of the several "classic rock" bands who make their living today by endlessly replaying the music they made in the 70's. That has never been the purpose of KC (or Fripp). If Robert would rather burn out than rust (to quote Neil Young), it is his right. While I would love to see him continue to produce new and vital music until he is 100, it is not realistic to expect it, and totally wrong to demand it. To me the reason KC is still vital while its contemporaries are not is most likely because Robert has known when to step back, and wait for the music to reassert itself, rather than trying to force it. So if he is retiring (and I repeat this is a premature conclusion), then enjoy what we have been given. And of course, the day will come when he, like all of us, will go to the "Great Gig In The Sky". So recognize that nothing is forever, and grant Robert the "Power To Retire", should he choose to exercise it. One last thing: while I am a firm believer in free speech, and would not have censored Stamperdanny's post, I find the racial aspects of his argument disturbing. While I agree that MTV is vacuous, it has nothing to do with race, but sales. In fact, his own mention of the Backstreet Boys and N'Sync shows how ridiculous the race argument is. While I personally find hip-hop to be mostly repetitive and limited (and the 'gangsta' poses absurd), it is popular among people of all races, and that is why MTV plays it. C'mon man, think about it! Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 12:28:21 -0400 From: "Dan Bailey" Subject: Zappa Hello Fellow Crimsonites, >From a life long Crimson fan it is good to see and read from others who have followed KC for all these years. To me their music is genius. I've seen a number of references to Frank Zappa on here. Back in the old days (late 60's) besides Crimson, we were into Yes, ELP, the Nice, Zeppelin, Moody Blues (first seven), but we never really got into Zappa. Heard Suzy Cream Cheese a couple of times and had the 'Zappa Takes A Crappa' poster. Anyone have any suggestions on what CD's to start with to get a real appreciation of Zappa's music. I thank you in advance. Like others on here, I do hope that Robert doesn't retire. Quality is always better than quantity. If only one person has been touched by something you do - then it and your life has been worth it. Peace, Dan Favorite KC Album - All of them. But if I could only have one it would be 'Three of a Perfect Pair'. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 12:32:14 -0400 From: BARLETB@Nationwide.com Subject: Bob's Retirement Party Some days you just gotta laugh?People just need to realize that IT COULDN'T LAST FOREVER! How long did you expect RF to take this pace? Album (and all that goes into it's prep and recording/mixing, etc) Tour (ad infinitum?) Etc (interview after interview!)?..Guys..it's been a good long run..get OVER it already! If the man is ready to retire completely, or just stop touring and recording, then so be it, it's not the end of the world. Be glad that he's going out respectably, and not after releasing some "crud" album that NO one likes! (and apparently a good deal of you hippies like the most recent album so even better, getting out on top!) I think that the 2nd coming (ok, maybe 5th or 6th) was a bonus in and OF itself! I almost freaked when I saw Vrooom in the stores way back in '94? I NEVER expected anything new from the band at that point! The fact the there has been at least as many or more releases (hell even double) since that disc than there were BEFORE. It IS a wonderful thing! (and here's to the future releases from his "vaults"!!!) I'm sure that this isn't the last you'll hear from the great RF, but you can almost bet that he's not going to embark on another album/tour/etc. frenzy! (who can blame him) So you greedy bastards that think that it's never going to end better realize that maybe this IS it, (or not) but it has to end sometime. Hopefully he takes his break, then goes back into the Collectors Club business and we can get THAT moving again and get more music into our grubby little paws!! God Bless Robert! If this is your decision, I hope it the right one, and wish you well! Thanks for the music! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 18:55:27 +0100 From: "Edward of Sim" Subject: Three of a Perfect Pair.... I said (in a much longer post): > surely there is nothing on TPTB or TCOL that is as close to being > predictable / typical / obvious as some of what's on the '80s band's 2nd > and 3rd records snip to which "Joseph A. DeGregorio" responded: > I don't know what the deal is about people not liking this album, BOTH > SIDES. It is a sheer joy to listen to it. I don't tire of it, and it > still holds up today. What do you mean by "typical" and "obvious"? Sure, > Sleepless gets redundant, but the title track is so well-conceived, as is > "Man with an Open Heart". And how can you not like the drumming in > "Industry", or the dramatic musical change that occurs in "Dig Me?"(I'm > ready to leave I wanna be out of here....). > > The first side just flows. The second is more of an aural adventure to > new > landscapes. I like it better than Discipline. It's way more interesting. > Besides, the live versions of Thela, Frame by Frame and Elephant Talk > blows > away the original album versions. > > Give it another listen, but all the way through, from start to finish. I want to clarify that I do not dislike 3oaPP (or Beat) for that matter, and I don't believe my post implies that I do. In fact, I'll even go so far as to say that I might not have become a full-fledged Crimhead if it hadn't been for the material on side 1 of 3oaPP. My post was in response to someone else's original posting (I've lost it now, I'm afraid), which raised some very cool questions about the band's past and present, but part of its premise was the implication that TCOL and TPTB showed that the band was no longer looking for new ideas. The point I was attempting to make in the bit quoted from my post was that there is material on Beat and ToaPP that is far more -- I don't quite want to say mainstream ("Heartbeat" not withstanding, but let's not go there) -- just far more sort of "normal" in the sense of being more traditionally structured, sort of "pop" songs (although with a Crim twist as always), than any of the stuff on TCOL and TPTB. I was only referring to some of the material, and I was not making a value judgment about its quality -- as I say, some of the material I'm talking about is some of my favourite Crimso. Just wanted to clarify. As always, mileage may vary. peace, Edward +x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+ Edward of Sim a Californian in Lancashire my band: http://www.mp3.com/VirginTwin "Classic rock of the future" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:29:44 -0700 From: "the ryans" Subject: Yo Fripp - thank you! Yo Bob, if you are throwing in the towel how about a word of thanks to balance all the negatives. If you really think KC has been one long red nightmare, it seems from afar that you need some basic therapy not The Work. You have had the privlige of playing some of the greatest modern ensemble musci with some of the greatest musicians, getting paid well for it, and getting to do it more or less whenever you felt like it. How many folks who aspire to just that have been able to acheive it? I think it was Rumi who said, 'gratefulness is the key to will'. I hope you rethink your attitude whatever you may do re: any more KC music. Well assumiong you just happen to read this ...thank you!!! For Larks Tounge in Aspic 1 and 2, for Red, Fracture, All of Discipline and Beat most of Thrak and anu other Crimson I may hear and love in the future. Thanks also for wisely using your crimson platform to lead many to Gurdjieff and thence possibly to his deepest roots Orthodox Christianity. Thanks for Guitar Craft, your work with Eno and especially the music [already mentioned above, but still in my book worthy of special note] all of the material on which you and Bill Bruford played on. So if you are in the wrong line of work as you say, best wishes in the future, and most importantly, best wishes in the realm of appreciation and gratitude. David Ryan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 22:27:49 +0100 From: "Richard Heath" Subject: Racist crap 'Stamperdanny' (ET1119) raves about "decent white bands", "the blacks have taken it over" and other associated racist bullshit. Do we have to be subjected to this crap? Richard Heath ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 18:17:42 EDT From: Guitar86rick@aol.com Subject: Fragg Dear Bruce Higgins, HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOR Rick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 17:17:01 -0500 From: Jeff Bridge Subject: It's Fripp's life Well, I'd hate to see Fripp disband King Crimson but he's already given me more great music to listen to then any one artist out there. So, if or whne it goes official that the King is abdicating his thrown I'll get good and sloshed then get on with my life after the hangover. I'd like to hear a massively heavy album from solo Fripp. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 18:34:31 EDT From: GORTAY@aol.com Subject: I'm a guitarist, get me out of here. Bob the Fripp has just made a rare and very bizarre appearence on tv. As people might know Toyah has been participant in a reality TV show called "I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here". In this show a bunch of alleged celebrities sit around in a corner of the Australian rain forest performing meaningless tasks and falling out with each other whilst the public vote in for their favourite. The person who gets the least number of votes gets evicted. On Friday May 9th Toyah was evicted and afterwards she was sitting talking to the show's hosts when who should appear but "Toyah's husband Robert". And there he was looking very bemused and engaging in small talk. I won't say that it was a great cultural event and there was no in depth questions so if you didn't see it you didn't really miss anything but it was, as I say. very bizarre. Gordy. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 19:41:10 -0400 From: Tim Subject: Fripp retiring I just wanted to say that I'm amazed at what short memories everyone has. Nearly every post I've seen expresses surprise and disbelief at the writings of Robert regarding his state of mind. I guess in 1974 it was a shock. In 1984 it was "oh no, not again". But this time around it just seems like the natural evolution of KC and inevitable. Remember, in '74 Fripp said he "had the top of his head blown off-he had no ego". In '84 he was totally frustrated and unhappy with his role in the band and the manner in which it had "progressed". Life span of KC 1: 5 years (with some lineup changes thrown in) Life span of KC 2: 4 years Life span of current iteration: 9 years (with ProjeKting mixed in). So I'm not at all surprised that this is where he is. It seems that KC can exist for 5 years or so before the ever-present turmoils take their toll on Robert (we should be amazed that this version lasted as long as it did-perhaps the ProjeKts offered a respite for the weary). Then its off to clean latrines for a few years, get himself back together, and allow KC music to drift into his fingers which signals the rebirth of the band. I do understand the sadness everyone would have if this version of KC does indeed call it quits (I would be saddened too), but most people act like this is totally out of left field. In fact its par for the KC course, and seems to be the way that KC is meant to exist. So Robert ends the band, takes a sabbatical (me thinks more of a working vacation as with Guitar Craft), and in a few years time unleashes the next incarnation of KC on all of us. Granted, he'll be around 60 then-so time will tell if this is the last hurrah. A question for all-Robert has often said that KC exists independent of himself (although his latest diary entries betray that somewhat-it nonetheless has been his ongoing conviction-"its not the Bobby Fripp band"). Say Fripp retires, would KC carry on in name without him (Gunn, Pat, Adrian, et. al.)? Should it? (in an artistic sense, not legally-that's a whole other question that they alone can likely answer). If they did carry on would you be as interested? Tim ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 00:48:22 GMT From: vedan@juno.com Subject: ITCOTCK, C Beefheart Greetings, In ET 1119, Steven Munari elaborates on ITCOTCK raising hairs on his neck after 33 years. I can identify with that. I first heard ITCOTCK in 1973 at the tender age of 15 (music like that was hard to find on the radio here in the southern US 30 years ago). The flute trill followed by the mellotron exploding does the same thing for me after 30 years. I was a metalhead and didn't like "violins" as I thought they were, but this song captured me and I haven't been the same. Also, on the subject of Captain Beefheart, I too enjoy his music. Naturally, Trout Mask Replica is a must have. It has some strange things on it,but it is really swell. His work on Bongo Fury and Hot Rats with FZ are quite enjoyable too. Also, Mirror Man is my idea of a "jam band", just put it on the turntable and let it go. No great thinking effort required, just enjoy. I'm sure the rest of his music is just as good, I just don't have the money or there is something else more important at the time. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:09:41 EDT From: RLTOWLER@aol.com Subject: OH NO I SPILLED MY HALF-FULL GLASS ALL OVER MY KEYBOARD Good Morning my fellow Basement Dwellers; Several quick points: 1) I hate Lists 2 I believe that Mr. Fripps reluctancy to do the "Next" album is his theory "that expectation is a prison" in action. Why is there a next album? Why should there be a next album? What about this album? Pretty good I think. 3) Mr. Fripp has every right to decide when and where his workday ends or starts or even is. 4) Music is a gift to be enjoyed there should not be so much stress attached to it (by the Creator of the Music, or the creator of the music, or those who enjoy it. 5) Racism is bad. Toby is good. (Remember those line from Frankenstein "Bread good-fire bad," -it's that simple.) 6) Hatred abounds in the world think globally act Locally. 7) Change item #1 to 1) I despise Lists 8) Never send long preachy emails to you favorite website---doh!! too late. Mr. Belew's work with Les Claypool sounds intriguing. Bob Towler (Iiving in the USA) Bob T (living in the USA) I Repeat myself when under stress. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1121 *********************************