Errors-To: admin@elephant-talk.com Reply-To: newsletter@elephant-talk.com Sender: moderator@elephant-talk.com Precedence: bulk From: moderator@elephant-talk.com To: newsletter@elephant-talk.com Subject: Elephant Talk #1122 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1122 Tuesday, 13 May 2003 Today's Topics: K.C. in Italy Re: ET post black toast Robert Fripp, the universe, and everything toyah's a celebrity European Tour tickets more on lyrics... Comments on ProjeKct One 'Jazz Cafe Suite'-CC#22, and humor! a correction to my post The Fripp Retirement Saga. Re: Racism/Fripp's leaving re-thought a tad The King Is Dead Re: racist commentary knee jerk political correctness Dan asks about Zappa Captain Beefheart (another) correction to my post Bob on the box - slight return Young Person's Guide to Frank Zappa Greatest drummers impact ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter@elephant-talk.com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin@elephant-talk.com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help@elephant-talk.com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph@sgi.com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 21:05:52 +0200 From: UZipter@t-online.de (epitaph) Subject: K.C. in Italy Hi, I 'm from germany and I will fly specially to Italy to see two King Crimson shows,in Venice and in Firenze.Are there any K.C. fans from Italy ,who could help me to come to the shows ? My hotel is in Bologna and every help is welcome.I also want to see the cities of Firenze ,Bologna and Venice and if there are K.C. fans who can show me some things,it would be great. Thanks Uwe Please write to: UZipter@t-online.de ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:27:21 +0100 From: "jim mcmanus" Subject: Re: ET post > "MTV2 used to play a lot of good > music, but now the blacks have taken it over. MTV will never stand up = > to the > black community, because they know if they do, they can be charged with > racism."=20 > > The above is from a post by Danny Stamper Danny, you are a [insult deleted by Toby]. I cant believe that sentence, insenstive, ignorant, inflamatary plain wrong, Black musicians worth listening too Miles, Jimi, Marvin, Stevie, Public Enemy I could go on all day and night, good music is not defined by colour and neither is bad music,I look forward to reading the avalanche of angry Elephant readers cheers Jim Toby If you feel you must edit my post, so be it, can you please acknowledge that it has been edited if you print it, also I must say that I find it odd that I get edited for "bad language" yet He is allowed to be blatantly offensive along racial lines, without any penalty. If you have to edit my original post, please add this one directly below. cheers Jim [ I edited out the insult not because it used bad language, but because it may have been construed as libel under UK law --Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:54:27 +0100 From: "d. chinn" Subject: black toast Stamperdanny wrote: > I remember when King Crimson "Three of a Perfect Pair; Live in Japan >was shown on the Saturday Night Concerts. Nowadays, they have >transformed into Black Entertainment Television version 2. Decent white >bands such as King Crimson can't get airplay while garbage such as the >"Backdoor Boys" and "N-stink" get played up left and right. MTV2 used >to play a lot of good music, but now the blacks have taken it over. MTV >will never stand up to the black community, because they know if they >do, they can be charged with racism. Sorry, I can't let that one pass. It might have been fuelled by frustration at KC's (possible) impending retirement, but it's still ugly. And - besides the thoroughly repugnant "them coloured folks have moved into OUR neighbourhood and now it's going downhill, dammit" flavour to that portion of Stamperdanny's post - it's got nothing to do with the actual situation. The simple fact is that we're living in an era when hip-hop and R'n'b are the chosen dominant genres of popular music (and also displaying some of the most advanced and innovative production and arrangement approaches, but that's another story...). People buy that music. Not necessarily because they're forced to, but because it reflects today's society and tastes better than, say, Crimson does. This may annoy people on this list and elsewhere, but remember that hip-hop's been around at least as long as "Exposure" has - around a quarter century - so it's had time to prove itself and worked its way up to its current preeminence. Also, when MTV first came on air it refused to show videos featuring black artists, so PLEASE, Stampdanny, don't give us this "reverse racism" garbage. Back then, even an unquestionably great multi-genre musician like Herbie Hancock had to use subterfuge to get played on MTV (he was reduced to appearing in his own video as a mere fleeting image on a TV screen in the midground). Pressure and runaway crossover successes like Michael Jackson's "Beat It" changed this state of affairs, but that hasn't meant that MTV was subject to some kind of black takeover, then or now. Someone like Sean "Puff Daddy/Diddy" Combs might be a big music industry player these days; but, please... he may have a cosy relationship with MTV, but he's NOT hogging the MTV board along with his cronies, and attempting to shut out whitey. There's still space for "decent white bands" on more rock-oriented programs on the music channels. Well, maybe not always "decent" ones, but the ones who are selling well or being heavily pushed. Same as it ever was. If you want to complain about Crimson not making it onto MTV, why not complain about the fact that Crimson aren't being promoted outside their existing fanbase? And then consider this - why should they be, given their nature as regards promotion? Here we have four fairly regular-looking middle-aged guys who just play powerful music but (bar Adrian, perhaps) don't bother with showmanship as such. They're also a band who historically have no taste for video whatsoever, nor for celebrity gladhanding (OK, Robert did appear in "Hello") and who have a set of pretty stubborn/admirably strict attitudes towards touring, venues, etc. In marketing terms, KC might be a respected brand (after thirty-four years in the biz) but they are hardly an easily shifted product who can be sculpted to fit the industry's current methods. Music video is not Crimson's natural home. The hot live date, where you can see them in the flesh, most definitely is. Consider Tool. A young(ish) King Crimson-inspired band who are currently in a position to headline over KC and (bizarrely) to play a paternal role towards them by taking the Double Duo on tour with them. And why are they in that position? Because Tool sell more - because they're more attuned to prevailing cultural tastes. Tool employ a post-Nirvana/Metallica element of punk howl and primal scream (as well as simplified musical shapes), play Marilyn Manson-style games with extreme imagery, morbidity and arty shock value; and (perhaps most significantly) have a guitarist whose greatest talent is not for playing but for Tool's conceptual design and video art. Consequently they're much better suited to the MTV way of doing things than Crimson are. And do bigger business as a result. The flipside is that a Tool video is far more interesting than a Tool composition, and that "The Power To Believe" is far superior in musical terms to "Lateralus". But until Adrian reinvents himself as - say - a tormented psychosexual performance artist in a diaper being menaced by CGI monsters from the Id, Tool will draw more attention. Similarly, a hip-hop or R'n'B artist who has a cool video with lots of dancing, glamour-shot innuendo, bouncy cars and ludicrous computer morphing is going to play on MTV a lot better than some static shots of a few good evolutionary-rock guitarists playing on stage and looking generally calm. I enjoyed some moments of the "Three Of A Perfect Pair" Japanese concert video, but even compared to some of the Crimson gigs I've been to it was a deadly dull viewing experience. If it bores a fan, what'll it do to an unbeliever? ;-) The problem is - as it so often is with the music industry - not one of content, but of form. King Crimson are a good band who present themselves in a form which is not easy to market. As I myself know about them already, like them and tell others about them, I couldn't care less about this. I don't need that pill sugared, thanks. I can find the records easily, and go to KC-related concerts when they're nearby (I'm a Londoner, so this is not too often). Of course, if I was a person who didn't know about Crimson even though I'd like them, I'd hope that some way would be available for me to discover them. And there is - specialist radio shows, underground (or better quality overground) print and web media, and our faithful old friend word-of-mouth (which has worked well for latterday underground progressive bands like Godspeed You Black Emperor or pre-"Vanilla Sky" Sigur Ros). Not quite as immediately gratifying as a constant-rotation video, I'll admit, but it works! Ignoring all this while claiming that some kind of black conspiracy is keeping Crimson off our TVs is just ridiculous. Crimson don't look GOOD enough on today's TV. That's all it is. If you still have a problem with black music on TV, Stamperdanny, just turn it off and look elsewhere in alternative media... like the newsletter you're reading right here. But please spare us bilious racist attacks on black music and on the increased black influence on American (and world) pop culture. I, for one, read ET for infuriating discussions about tour dates, dream Crimson line-ups, people's mild sexual fantasies about Mr Gunn, minutiae about obscure Italian prog bands etc - certainly not for resentful sub-White Power diatribes. A more positive thought for us all. Over the years, the field of popular music (encompassing KC and N'Sync, whether we like it or not) has been steadily expanding. It's like an inverted pyramid with us standing on the broad base, with even more new genres appearing for us every few years. There was more on offer in the 1940s than in the 1920s, still more in the '50s, even more in the '60s... and there's certainly a far broader variety of possible musics to choose from in 2003 than there were in Crimson's critical heyday in the mid-70s. I'm pretty happy about that, personally. I can listen to "Red" as well as catching up with people like Cannibal Ox. Right, now I'm off to listen to the rather white new No-Man album, followed by some mostly-black electric-band-era Miles Davis; and then perhaps the interesting multi-racial hybrid hip-hop/prog/post-rock debut album by Sphyr. Any racial or cultural components involved in the music will be a source of interest or stimulation, rather than rage. Cheers! Dann PS - As regards Robert's dark hints re retirement: he just sounds tired and depressed, as he usually does while he's on tours. Definitely someone who needs more time at home - send him to Toyah and get her to persuade him to write a happy chord sequence! King Crimson will survive for as long as Robert feels that it has musical momentum, and that he likes the other members more than he finds them frustrating. Compared to Crimson's past history, the current disagreements between Robert and Trey seem pretty civilised, reasonable and incidental to the life of the band - much like Adrian's brief resignation between the ProjeKCts and "TCOL". Also remember that Robert has a tendency to dramatise his life and philosophy to greater lengths than the rest of us... just as he's been known to gush excessively about how great and generally saintly the Double Duo are. As long as people are sweet to him, make him comfortable, and feed him nice Beastly cakes, it'll be OK in the end. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 10:09:40 -0500 From: "Kevin Brunkhorst" Subject: Robert Fripp, the universe, and everything Mr Fripp has expressed his lack of satisfaction with things Crimson, and the members of ET have as normal spent a lot of energy and typed a lot of words reacting to it. Every human activity is done for a pay-off. Fripp has at times over the last 35 years been the conduit for various energies labelled King Crimson, and his activites over those times have often been dictated by it. His job, as it were, has been to be the heart and soul of the undefinable thing that is King Crimson. If it could be done some other way, it would have. Fripp has been very transparent about the joys and sorrows he has felt as result of this. (Think of it: how many others in the world of music/arts/entertainment have so thoroughly collected, journalled, and shared so many of his/her thoughts with his audience? And yet many complain that he's 'unfriendly', as if he owes something.) If Fripp judges his payoff from recent KC activities to be less than required or desired, there's nothing you or I can do to change that. He will adjust his needs or wants, or change his behavior. This might mean KC no longer exists, or it may not. This has happened before, more that once. Music becomes less and less important to many as they become older. 50-somethings command less attention in music than 20-somethings; this is often inversely proportional to their abilities or the scope of their art. Many who post in ET demonstrate how little we are truly listening; look around at recent posts regarding such things as 'Who are the best drummers?' or 'How I wish Fripp would play 'ITCOCK' again' or 'I hate MTV because all the black people make me upset'. Fripp has doubtless worked hard over the years in service of the muse. He knows he can do nothing about his audience, or how difficult the newest record was to create, or how it sold, or... a list of other things out of his control. No doubt deep in his heart he's also grateful for the opportunities he has had to be heard. As John Lennon said about the end of The Beatles: It's only a pop group, it's nothing important. In the meantime: create the world you wish to live in. Fripp does; it's why KC has existed. It may be why it may not exist again. Kevin Denton, Texas ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 05:46:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Hywel Davies Subject: toyah's a celebrity anyone see Bob and Toyah on the dreadful "i'm a celebrity, get me out of here" yesterday on tv (in the UK)? Fripp was there to greet his wife as she was voted out of the jungle. very funny to see him on such a show... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 09:41:02 EDT From: JonboyHill@aol.com Subject: European Tour tickets Hello. Does anybody know how to get hold of tickets for the European tour? I have seen the gig list but I can't find any way of actually purchasing the things. I live in England and I have found a flight to get me to Malaga and back but I would like to book some tickets rather than just turn up. And why doesn't the stubborn old fella just come and play Birmingham symphony hall if he hates London that much? Oooh it makes me mad. cheers chaps. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:37:08 -0400 From: Dave Subject: more on lyrics... I think technically the one line in HWWYHTBHW line goes: "I'll brew another pot of ambigui-TEA" Just another great example of Belew's command of the English Language. Thanks, Dave ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:26:24 -0400 From: Dan Buxbaum Subject: Comments on ProjeKct One 'Jazz Cafe Suite'-CC#22, and humor! First of all, whoever said that Robert Fripp doesn't have a sense of humo(u)r need only to sneak a glance at the cover of the latest Collectors Club cd. (Just who or what is he looking at? Caught in mid-sneaze?!) I'll let somebody else chime in with the "So that's why he doesn't like photography at the concerts" jokes. 1) This disc is worth its price alone for Mr. Fripp's opening solo out of soundscapes on the 1st improv (after Bill Bruford kicks in): an inspired combination of midi gtr. technology, some distortion added to the signal, and classic "in the moment" Fripp guitar playing. Beginning with a Bang! 2) "Suite One" is the digital age equivalent of "The Rich Tapestry of Life": 30 min. improvs. (with good sound quality!) 3) Trey Gunn's best solo (IMO) occurs at the end of the second improv., though I must deduct a few points for sounding so "Fripp-like". 4) Even though there is a photo in the inside booklet of Bill Bruford playing his xylophone, and two mentions of Bruford using it at the rehearsal/performances, the only "xylophone" heard on this cd emanates from Robert Fripp's guitar synth! (as heard on the last two improvs). Now, that's humorous, fellas!! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 20:45:48 -0400 From: Dan Buxbaum Subject: a correction to my post (hopefully, somewhere else in this newsletter, I wrote): > 1) This disc is worth its price alone for Mr. Fripp's opening solo out > of soundscapes on the 1st improv (after Bill Bruford kicks in): an > inspired combination of midi gtr. technology, some distortion added to > the signal, and classic "in the moment" Fripp guitar playing. Beginning > with a Bang! > Upon further close listening, it is Trey Gunn who takes that first "sinister sounding" solo, not Robert Fripp. Sorry to all. Nice solo Trey!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 01:47:26 +0100 From: Craig Ward Subject: The Fripp Retirement Saga. There seem to have been a number of selfish/short-sighted/solipsistic posts recently as to Fripp's grumblings and their significance. Some thoughts on the issue: 1. Stop demanding. Robert Fripp is 57 years old. Now, I (for my sins) have some experience of being in a band which has "enjoyed" a degree of critical acclaim and felt the ensuing record company (ie. marketplace) pressure. My band has recently experienced a "one year" sabbatical which turned into a four year sabbatical, primarily because no-one in the band has been (until now) able to summon the willpower required to embark on the project of creating an album and promoting it. A five year period which included two albums and their related tours sapped us. And we were but young men in our mid-to-late 20s. (If I were to go into every detail about every sapping, soul-destroying element of band-life in the marketplace I would be here all night. So I wont.) I repeat, Robert Fripp is 57 years old, and has been enduring music-biz idiocy for about 35 years. Give him a fucking break. He has delivered. 2. Give me one reason why KC shouldn't call it quits now. We have waited 22 years for this - for the three definitive Crimson albums to become the four definitive Crimson albums. Haven't you grumblers/pleaders ever heard of going out on a high note? Be grateful. Show me a 22-year-long project that wasn't painful. Go on. 3. If Fripp does "retire", but finds, a few years down the line, that Crim music is "flying past his ear" and decides to pursue what he hears, what would be the problem? And, for that matter, what would be new? 4. Should we (while we're at it) demand of Fripp that he not die? 5. Fripp is uniquely honest in that he publishes his daily journal online. Tell me you've never had a day when you were down on your life and decided you were in the wrong line of work. 6. The artist/musician owes "his/her" public almost nothing. When a fan has paid for a concert ticket, that fan is owed a performance to the best of the artist/musician's abilities at that time. That is all. There are no further obligations. Waiting for your rock hero's next album is a profound waste of a life. You only get one. Don't ruin it. 7. I, for one, would be perfectly happy if Fripp chose, from now on, to put his energies into Soundscapes albums and the odd guest-guitarist appearance. That would be a perfectly noble and worthy post-retirement career. 8. Don't be a fan, that's a humiliating and degrading thing to be. Just enjoy (and be grateful, if you're that way inclined). There is no need for sycophancy. There is no need for need. Stop demanding. Can we move on now? Peace, Craig ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 19:21:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Steven Munari Subject: Re: Racism/Fripp's leaving re-thought a tad Hello fellow Criminals; I had to re-think my position on Robert Fripp's 'diary comments' & my reaction in my last post. I still feel cheated after devoting a large amount of time & money, by the thought that Robert is packing it in, however, it's no different than if he had died or got 'tinitus' or some other injury that would keep him from playing. However, I guess I just don't want it to end this way, for selfish reasons and for the other musician's in the band and all the other KCriminals. It's 'his diary' comments that tend tp piss me off. I mean of course he can & will do what he wants & what is best for 'him', however there 'are' others to consider, those whom make their living from KC & not just the members but the road crew, & all the tech's hell everyone. Btw I CAN now hum the chorus or melody of some songs from "TPTB" so I was to quick to act in that case. The thing is, the moments I remember of the 'new songs' sound alot like parts of 'old' Crimson tunes! Oh well, when an idea is great, use it every 15 or 20 yrs or so! Btw did anyone else hear what Fripp is stating now in a couple of tunes from "TPTB"?? Anyway, those great performance moments cannot be taken away and I still have the cd's, but right now I feel i'll listen to them less. As I said previously, I certianly hope this doesn't stop the members of "The 21st Cen. Schizoid Band" of performing. Onto poster, "Stampdaddy". I too was taken aback by some of his comments. Saying that(& I'm completely paraphrasing here)The Black community would stop MTV if it didn't air 'black' video's, or would charge them with racism, whatever he said. While he's busy blaming MTV for an over abundance of black artists, I don't recall him specifically naming any!?? What the... I do find PLENTY of fault with MTV & MTV2 however, and the majority of radio. I mean how screwed up are our young people, when everything they know comes from "either" MTV station, or VH-1 to a 'slightly lesser' extent. Just watch "The Tonight Show's" segment(s)of "Jaywalking' & you'll get a sad insight into todays youth. They can't answer the simplest questions on things like the U.S. Government, or identify photo's of past & present Presidents, or those of Castro or the Pope & identify them or look at say the Mona Lisa & be able to name it, 1000 other examples i've seen, & MOST were young people, some IN COLLEGE! Some people find "Jaywalking" or similair segments 'hilarious', I find them frightening...disturbing. All the kid's today have their parents money to buy the cd's that MTV & it's counterparts in radio feed them 24 hours everyday. "Stampedaddy" did have some of the 'artists' names correctly, Brittney-Pink-Put the young 'good looking' female singer's or talkers name here. Then Eminiem-Nelly-Limp Bizkit-50 cent-again put same names here. I detest the products that MTV makes billions on, and YES alot of them are BLACK! Is that a lie? It's a majority of Hip Hop, and Rap & Gangster Rap that gets ALL the airplay, male or female. Plus anything stupid sells. Fact. Anything that has to do with Sex sells! Fact. Otherwise why would there be so many MTV "Houseparty's" or MTV "Summer Break" specials, at least the poster didn't lie to everyone. There was a recent 'small scandal over here in the U.S. when what I believe was an MTV employee, or an ex-MTV employee(pls forgive me MTV if i'm wrong)was in either Florida or California, & was arrested for 'lewd conduct', 'contributing to the delinquency of minors' plus 'possession of cocaine' & 'possessing liquor to contribute to the minors', I may have that last charge named incorrectly? Anyway this 'great guy' & his crew(videotapers) were 'hiring' young women(under the legal age wether that's under 18 or 21 or whatever doesn't matter)for $30 U.S. dollars a day & 'ALL THE LIQUOR' they could drink. Men too, but no charges against the guy's were filed, because they're young men I guess it's ok? So he'd pay them, allow them to get themselves so drunk that they'd strip off their bikini's, & get into 'lewd' acts with each other or the boys, whomever and these guy's videotaped this activity & sold it. The main guy had business cards and some shitty name for his 'production company'. They seized tapes cocaine & a van or two used 'for hauling the video gear'(they looked like someone's idea of a 'cool ride to pick up chicks in' to me, they had the cheesy carpeting, all over everything, bench type seats, or a fold down bed whatever, in the back) the 'typical' van for some jerkoff. Plus the seized video's from the years prior to this, that had sleeves printed on them & boxes with seductive photo's that the "news" channel had to morph over to air. So this guy had done this long before he got caught, & made quite a sum of money as a website was discovered. At the time I saw it the FBI was involved in attempting to locate the 'girl's' on the released tapes they thought were too young, so they could further prosecute these guys. I know we have more pressing problems, but our youth has only 1 chance at life & the crap on Music television & most of radio, doesn't help. "Stampdaddy"was really wrong about BET, that's about the only tc station I CAN find good music on! The old Geezar My point is ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 23:33:31 -0400 From: "josh chasin" Subject: The King Is Dead I don't read the Fripp diaries so I don't reallty know what the deal is with all this Crimson being over talk. But if he's quitting, I think Ade, Pat and Trey should replace him with Prince and continue on as Prince Crimson. That would totally rock! Their first album could be called The New Power 2 B Lieve. I was also toying with the idea of a line-up featuring George Duke but that doesn't work for me. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 20:35:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Jackson Subject: Re: racist commentary This type of racist commentary is unexcusable and the person responsible should be banned from this list! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 00:28:38 -0400 From: Philip J Taylor Subject: knee jerk political correctness This post is in rebuttal to the kneejerk responses found in Elephant talk #1120. The list manager was severely chastened and impuned for letting "racist" comments of certain subscribers through to the list. Others, in their knee jerk, blind faith political correctness took issue with something negative directed towards african american mainstream "music" i.e. rap, hip hop, etc. My question is, aside from the apparent lack of writing talent the poor lad has, what did he say that was so "racist...brain dead stupid...misinformed"? Are those of you who disagree with Stamperdanny saying that MTV does NOT play nearly all rap or similar type garbage music? And you are saying that you can turn on MTV and find music that IS worth listening too? I don't think he is saying that all black music is not worth listening to, just the garbage on MTV. Lord knows, where would prog rock be without the influence of jazz? I know that the ET membership is preponderously liberal, but I didn't realize that a certain segment of it was so ultra-sensitive to other points of view. Transcending all of this, I must note that this list digresses into too much of this babble, burble, brew ha ha, bolderness, ballyhoo. KC is why we read and write on ET. Phil Taylor ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 02:58:14 -0500 From: John Michael Beard Subject: Dan asks about Zappa I predict Toby will Zap the Zappa thread soon, but to answer Dan Bailey's question, one of many good starting points might be Roxy & Elsewhere, Sheik Yerbouti, Bongo Fury, or Hot Rats (if you're humor-challenged). To paraphrase Zappa, they're all hits to me, but these four strike me as being fairly accessible. El Juan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 14:46:58 +0100 From: Craig Ward Subject: Captain Beefheart I'm glad one or two of you have raised the subject of Beefheart. It seems to me that no self-respecting Crimhead who appreciates the dissonant thrills of Wetton-period-Crim or the dual guitar experimentation of the Belew period, could fail to be moved by the Captain's finest work. Those of you not familiar with the Magic Band's oeuvre are recommended to start with Clear Spot - a remarkably accessible (and uniquely groovy) record which sees the Captain somehow managing to take the wild angular experimentation of Trout Mask Replica and Lick My Decals Off Baby, and make it infinitely more digestible (without compromising the uniqueness of his approach AT ALL). It is quite an achievement. If that tickles move on to the last three albums he made (78-81) - Shiny Beast (most accessible of the three), Doc At The Radar Station (best of the three, IMHO, and one of his very finest. Very challenging and much darker than the other two), and Ice Cream For Crow (weakest of the three, but still worthwhile). By the time you've got through that lot you should be ready to have a go at Trout Mask Replica - the most astoundingly radical, original, mind-bogglingly world-upside-down-turning record ever made. I love Crimson dearly, but nothing they've done comes close (this is no insult - nothing anyone's done comes close). In fact it's funny to think that ITCOTCK and Trout Mask were released the same year. In terms of fashionableness, Crim were THE hip radical young cats of 69, while Beefheart and The Magic Band were ultra-peripheral freaks (ignored by all but only the most discerning hacks). Next to Trout Mask ITCOTCK is a paper-thin, insubstantial collection of half-arsed nursery rhymes. Or to put it more diplomatically, ITCOTCK was very much of it's time. Trout Mask transcends time completely. Having said that, I never was a huge fan of pre-Lark's Tongues Crim. I'm not a huge fan of pre-Trout Mask Beefheart either (with the exception of the sublime Kandy Korn). And while we're on the subject of the lesser works of these giants - there are two (by his own admission) awful records that Beefheart made in the mid 70s - Unconditionally Guaranteed and Blue Jeans And Moonbeams. Avoid these at all costs. Don't say you weren't warned. Peace, Craig ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 10:50:12 -0400 From: Dan Buxbaum Subject: (another) correction to my post (Luckily this first post hasn't appeared yet so i can correct myself before others do it for me.) I said: > 4) Even though there is a photo in the inside booklet of Bill Bruford > playing his xylophone, and three mentions of Bruford using it at the > rehearsal/performances, the only "xylophone" heard on this cd emanates > from Robert Fripp's guitar synth! (as heard on the last two improvs). > Now, that's humorous, fellas!! > Upon further listening, there is definitely 'actual' xylophone played by BB on the second improv. Sorry to all. (But the 'big' tuned perc. solos are all from RF's guitar synth--right about that at least.) -- P.S. I recommend the Frank Zappa/Mothers of Invention album 'One Size Fits All' (recorded in 1974) as a must for all 'prog-heads'. (All 'serious' music fans have to hear the first song "Inca Roads" at some point or another.) And Captain Beefheart/Magic Band's 'Clear Spot' ('72) is definitely a killer, stomping of a record, with amazing guitar (slide & otherwise) playing. More 'lowdown' and straightahead than the critical fav 'Trout Mask Replica' (which deserves listening too of course). ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 11:00:51 EDT From: GORTAY@aol.com Subject: Bob on the box - slight return Following on from his triumphant appearance on "My Wife's a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here" Bob the Fripp, confounding the unsupported rumours of his retirement, is due to make another appearence on British tv. Tune into BBC2's "The Whistle Test Years" on Thursday May 15th @ 23:50 (BST) where we are promised a clip of the King from errrm either 1982 or 83. They do one programme for each year of the show's archives but I've lost count of where they've got to. Gordy. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 11:50:31 -0500 From: "Gerardo Liedo" Subject: Young Person's Guide to Frank Zappa On Digest 1121 Dan Bailey wrote: "Anyone have any suggestions on what CD's to start with to get a real appreciation of Zappa's music. I thank you in advance." I'm a fan of Zappa since the late 60s, before I heard my first King Crimson album (ITWOP), I got hooked on both. Zappa music is really wide, he explored so many kinds of music and was so productive that's it's hard to make a guide, but in the case of a King Crimson fan, I'm gonna try to make a brief "Young Person's Guide to Frank Zappa" Hot Rats Overnite sensation Sheik Yerbouti We're only in it for the money Bongo Fury The Grand Wazoo (Even that it's so jazzy, it's a great underrated album) Make a Jazz noise here (Which is not jazzy at all LOL) The probably you will be ready for "The Yellow Shark", if not, then listen the whole "You Can't Do That on Stage Anymore" 12 CD set Saludos Gerardo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 12:44:09 EDT From: Etude17@aol.com Subject: Greatest drummers impact John Bonham Bill Bruford Billy Cobham Steve Smith Tony Williams The most fairest way to judge a drummers greatness is to place your favorite drummer in Return To Forever or Mahavishnu Orchestra and see what they can cough up. Permit me to say that very few bands have challenged the nervous system like the Double Trio have. I hope Mr. Fripp concentrates on releasing some recordings from 94-96. While double drumming took a major turn with the Grateful Dead and Allman Bros., only the Dead and the Double Trio utilized it like an orchestrated instrument and emphasizing polyrhythms, meaning not to walk on one another and hitting the same beats but instead playing off one another. This is much more difficult than you think in the face of rock music. Bill gets a Batterie award for this alone. Drummers can be measured for their impact or playing like a machine. I prefer impact and if they challenge your senses while approaching the music with vision and focus. Not because we are on ET but because of Bill's uncanny refusal to musically sell out all but just once for the YES Union tour in order to support another incarnation of Earthworks and being a true pioneer. Let us face it, a lot of musicians could not grip changing faces and directions in music, surviving to say the least, maintaining integrity, staying focused while adapting like a chameleon to their surroundings and of course learning. 70's fusion is where the challenge blossomed. Alphonse Mouson was a mighty fine drummer. Vinne C. with Zappa. Although I prefer Ansley Dunbar's and Chester Thompson's work with Frank simply because of the intensity of the material and improvisational mayhem that embraced the early 70's era big band. How about Cobham and Lenny White? Cobham has far more control and coordination in both left and right hand and speed than Neil Peart does, and seeing Zep and Tull in the early 70's, nobody played with more vengeance, power and passion than Bonham and Barriemore Barlow executed the most amazing drum solo of his time when solos were becoming a hot concert attraction. It is all a matter of taste. ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1122 *********************************