Errors-To: admin@elephant-talk.com Reply-To: newsletter@elephant-talk.com Sender: moderator@elephant-talk.com Precedence: bulk From: moderator@elephant-talk.com To: newsletter@elephant-talk.com Subject: Elephant Talk #1140 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 1140 Tuesday, 19 August 2003 Today's Topics: Re: ET Distribution Chapman Stick My Dream Duet Elephant Talk lyrics in Wall Stree Journal recent re-airing of WNYC's RF/Crafty Guitarists More Fripp/Belew Identification Issues Touring Australia Question: The Mincer and The Law Of Maximum Distress. looking for ntsc vhs tapes-- help! Crimson Tour or not? 'Official' King Crimson music scores for first 5 albums now available FREE : Is the record industry crazy? What the heck is Bob doing?!?!?!? KC UK TOUR??? starless Concert Volumes and the drunken-fan-fools. Fripp Or Belew? Discussion Re: Ade as a showman influenced by FZ/Not getting ET Mark "Lauren" Gleed NEWS Hot Mail Abuse? ET Distribution ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter@elephant-talk.com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin@elephant-talk.com or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ To ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help@elephant-talk.com ET Web: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ Read the ET FAQ before you post a question at http://www.elephant-talk.com/faq.htm Current TOUR DATES info can always be found at http://www.elephant-talk.com/gigs/tourdates.shtml You can read the most recent ten editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/newsletter.htm THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmaster) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.7b (relph@sgi.com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:57:59 +0100 From: "Alan Gent" Subject: Re: ET Distribution wow I guess this won't be a long thread but boy did I enjoy reading Mike Dickson's response to the note he'd received re ET. Well done Mike, lest you thought lots of us weren't behind you on this one. I ALWAYS appreciate volunteer help, so keep up the good work and (it hardly needs saying) don't be afraid to stand up again and let them have it! cheers Alan www.alangent.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:29:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Darryl Subject: Chapman Stick Long time, no post... I was recently wondering how prevelant the use of the Chapman Stick is in any form of music(mainstream or otherwise). Every once in a while I'll hear a song on the radio(mainly from the 1980s) that sounds like there is a Stick being played. But then again it could have been a bass synthesizer(or the low notes on a synthesizer, whichever you want to call it). What really got me thinking about this was hearing the Cyndi Lauper hit "Time After Time" recently. It sounds to me like a Stick being used for the bass parts. Some They Might Be Giants songs from the '80s sound like they have a Stick on them as well. I read an interview with Tony Levin on his website I believe where he said the Chapman Stick has been used since the late 1970s. As far as I know he himself never used it until the third Peter Gabriel album. So, in brief: How long has the Stick been around and, how much has it been used by different artists(and also what fairly well-known songs does the instrument appear on?) [ Darryl, may I politely suggest asking Mr Google? There is a lot of Stick info out there. -- Toby ] Thanks for any info, Darryl W. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:23:17 -0700 From: "Danny Stamper" Subject: My Dream Duet I wonder how many "cussins'" I am going to receive when I state "My Dream Duet" on this prestigious newsletter. I'm talking about a duet between the Masterminds behind the two greatest progressive bands in rock music. I'm talking about "King Crimson" and "Jethro Tull" i.e. Robert Fripp and Ian Anderson. Why the hell not? Both men are musical geniuses. Imagine Ian Anderson's flute playing overtop of Robert Fripp's hypnotic guitar. Breathtaking! I realize their egos would probably never let this happen. But stranger things have happened. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:21:31 -0700 From: "Rick's Mail" Subject: Elephant Talk lyrics in Wall Stree Journal Found "Elephant Talk" lyrics in Opinion Journal's Best of the Web column -- an online site put out by the Wall Street Journal -- on 8/7/03. Oddly enough King Crimson wasn't credited. I wrote to Opinion Journal. I wonder if they'll issue a correction. It might be worth a call from someone in your organization. Back Talk Remember Mario Cuomo? He used to be New York's ultraliberal governor, and in the pre-Clinton years his name often surfaced as a potential Democratic presidential candidate. Cuomo never ran for president, but now he's urging Al Gore to do so--again. Reports the Associated Press: "I would like to see him get in," said Cuomo in an interview with WROW-AM radio in Albany, N.Y. "Right now, the Democratic voice is not a single voice. It is not a chorus. It is a babble," said the former New York governor. Babble, burble, banter, bicker bicker bicker, brouhaha, balderdash, ballyhoo--it's only talk. "People have been dying to hear him speak," Monica Friedlander, a "longtime Gore volunteer who started Draft Gore 2004," tells the Boston Globe. Of course, dead people don't vote (except maybe in Chicago), so if Gore does want to run again, he'd be well-advised to keep his mouth shut. Regards, Rick Scheiner Paradigm 858.693.6115 619.647.4027 (mobile) Visit us on the Web: www.paradigmplacements.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 11:29:29 -0400 From: Dan Buxbaum Subject: recent re-airing of WNYC's RF/Crafty Guitarists For anybody who hasn't heard this radio show originally taped in Sept. '92--here's the link--you could even listen to the whole show again if your computer is 'hardy' enough. (The shortish Frippertronics solo is quite lovely.) http://www.wnyc.org/shows/newsounds/episodes/08062003 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 06:35:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Rikard Grankvist Subject: More Fripp/Belew Identification Issues Hi again! Thanks for the tips. Try to confirm my asumption: The overdrive solo in Dinosaur (THRAK) and the first solo in ProzaKc Blues (The ConstruKction Of Light) appear to be played by the same guy, and I'm guessing Belew. Mostly because of the fast descending licks which sounds really hammer-on/pull-offish and also because of the amount of distorsion, which I've learnt is a Belew trademark. Am I correct (what made me wonder was a transcription of dinosaur on Elephant-Talk.com saying it was Fripp playing that solo)? Next: Out of curiosity, what tunings do Fripp and Belew use most of the time? I had no idea they used alternate tunings... Also, what kind of "guitar sounds" are typical for each player? Does Fripp play most of the synth-stuff (the strings and clarinets or whatever) with Belew doing most of the distorsion guitars? Or is it the other way around? /Rikard (same person, new email address) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:46:50 +1000 From: Brit Subject: Touring Australia Hi, I would like to ask why King Crimson seem to have never toured Australia. Was this for financial and/or logistiKcal reasons? Would such a tour be considered? Gerard. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 02:34:54 +0000 From: "FC Prates" Subject: Question: The Mincer and The Law Of Maximum Distress. I suppose that such a question can be considered somewhat of an inane and maybe innapropriate question, considering: a) It concerns nothing short of a song/improv; b) It concerns the '73-'74 KC--although as Fripp himself says that if a Crimhead should "move on" if any inkcarnation of the band doesn't suit the Crimhead's "taste", perchance even a Crimhead who hasn't moved on (yes, I am very fond of the TCoL/Power To Believe KC and I don't expect anything; I simply accept as I believe in RF's concept of what King Crimson is, unlike many "die-hard" Crimheads) shouldn't bother with the past; c) It also concerns bootlegs; d) And to wrap it up, "The Great Deceiver" box set, which might be something that's not so accessible to many Crimheads, not to mention the aforementioned consideration (item c). Read: a dumb question. But there's something about "The Mincer" (which was improvised in their show on November 15th, 1973, on Zurich--so I've read somewhere around here, and as everyone knows, the tape ran off) that I'd like to know, but first, allow me to point out a few things before putting forth the question itself. It's quite obvious that "The Mincer" comes from what's also known as "The Law Of Maximum Distress, Part 1". My conclusions on this are simply based on the 2 bootlegs that were done from this performance--according to the KC Live website--and the fact that Bill seems to be starting to play what he plays on the beginning of The Mincer (on SaBB, of course) while Fripp plays the Mellotron and David Cross plays a crescendo in his violin when "Maximum Distress 1" is cut. On the beginning of "The Mincer", you can clearly hear that he's playing the violin. And on "The Mincer", the sound of the tape running off is obvious, while on the "Maximum Distress 1" it cuts abruptly--and it's a very clean cut. Also, on "The Mincer", Cross switches from the violin to the electric piano (with fuzz and wah-wah) throughout its entirety, while Fripp switches from the Mellotron to the guitar halfway or so throughout its entirety as well. And on "Maximum Distress 2", which also begins in a clean way (the fact that it begins speeded up doesn't mean anything--as a musician who has recorded concerts on reel tapes, I know that the tapes start much like they end, and as a sound engineer, with the lack of better words, I'm no fool) he is indeedly playing the electric piano with the fuzz and the wah wah, and Fripp has already switched to the guitar. Therefore, Fripp has omitted what must be around five minutes of what became "The Mincer" on the GD box set, and who knows how many minutes (or seconds) of what became "Maximum Distress part 2" as well. Whatever were his reasons for such, it's really none of my business, so I'm not going to question this. The way I see it, I've never seen or heard or read anything that's unreasonable from him concerning KC releases since they were released under the DGM label. So, for those who have the Zurich Volkshaus boots, or have been informed of what could be the answer to the question, I'd like to ask: a) How much improvisational time on "Maximum Distress 1" happens before they actually play "The Mincer" itself? (it doesn't seem too much) b) How much improvisational time after "The Mincer" happens before they actually play "Maximum Distress part 2?" c) What is the actual length of the whole improv? Thank you very much. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:20:35 -0400 From: "Bill Sallak" Subject: looking for ntsc vhs tapes-- help! dear et, perhaps someone in the greater et community can help me out-- i'm currently looking for ntsc copies of the vhs tapes that (until recently--drat!) were available on the dgm website. specifically, copies of _the noise: line in frejus 1982_ and _three of a perfect pair: live in japan 1984_. i'm currently working on my thesis (on '81-'84 crimson) and these videos would be extremely helpful. i'd be happy to buy copies from anyone looking to get rid of theirs, or if a particularly charitable person could help me by dubbing copies, it would be greatly appreciated. i'd be glad to recompense in whatever way you might prefer. please reply to the list or to sallak@uakron.edu. many thanks and best wishes Bill Sallak Graduate Teaching Assistant, University of Akron Director, University of Akron African Drumming Ensemble Staff Modern Dance Accompanist. Kent State University ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:11:16 +0100 From: "Alan Gent" Subject: Crimson Tour or not? Just come back from Italy where I saw a poster for a Crimson gig in Ferrara. Heard of it? I had vaguely but obviously Fripp regards that as far more important than playing ANYWHERE in the UK. Alan www.alangent.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:05:08 +0100 From: "Webmaster at the FraKctured Zone" Subject: 'Official' King Crimson music scores for first 5 albums now available FREE :) The FraKctured Zone is delighted to announce that, with a little help from Tom Margulies and Dan Amyx, we have recently acquired the 'official' (E.G. Music/Essex Music International) music scores for the first five King Crimson albums and that these are now available for FREE OF CHARGE at the Music Notation page at http://www.frakctured.ukf.net Here's what happened... In 1975 Dan wrote to E.G. Music group regarding availibility of the music in written form. After about 6 months he received an apology for the delay and the scores for all 5 albums as a "consolation prize" for his patience with a message saying that these were normally not available. He has recently auctioned them at E-bay and Tom (winning bidder and good-egg) has very kindly agreed to share them with us Yeeeeeesssss!!! Please help yourselves :) :) :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:15:23 -0500 From: "Phillip Ciskowski" Subject: Is the record industry crazy? I think we already know the answer, but here is more evidence I would like to submit. The whole MP3 situation, the Apple site, and Rhapsody have proven that people want cheap and convenient music, regardless whether the sound quality is the best they could get. The music industry response? DVD-Audio, SACD, and thousands of subpoenas. Good job! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:00:59 -0500 From: "Fermier World HQ" Subject: What the heck is Bob doing?!?!?!? I just got the KC Collector's Club disc number 22 (ProjeKct One, Jazz Cafe suite) and it's GREAT! It's one of my favorite discs so far. I do have one question. Just what the heck is Bob doing in the photo on the cover? Is he sneezing? Looking at a airplane passing over head? Passing out? Anybody else have any clues? RWF ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 23:36:52 +0100 From: "Paul Williams" Subject: KC UK TOUR??? HI I have been away from Elephant Talk for years but am now returned. What is the deal with no UK dates - Is RF still bearing a grudge against the Music Press? I thought he would have been a bigger man than that?! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 23:15:27 +0200 From: "P & M Papasian" Subject: starless I just went through your web site and I loved it! Amazing source of info on our favorite music. Unfortunately, I was looking for something that I did not find. So I am sending this request in hope that somebody could help me. I heard a remix of STARLESS on French public radio in July (it was yet another day of strike in France - don't we love those!!!) Anyway, this remix brought tears to my eyes : partly because I had not listened to Starless in 20 years, but also because this was a modern version of Starless (like its heir). There was a mix of what I thought was a symphonic orchestra (it could have a good keyboard playing strings) and samples. Anybody knows about this tune? author, source, anything I want it !!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 07:42:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Rikard Grankvist Subject: Concert Volumes and the drunken-fan-fools. Continuing Scott Steeles discussion. I live in Sweden and saw KC do their first ever performance in Sweden (that's what I've heard) this year, on the european Power-tour. I hadn't been to concert of this kind before. I've seen loud rock-bands in large arenas (Red Hot Chili Peppers for example), and I've seen modest jazz in clubs. But this was new. The incredibly focused and controlled rock-band in a theater-size(not cinema, the broadway kind of theater) arena. Actually they performed at a real theatre. Anyway, the controlled rock-band in the intimate arena. However, with rock(?) comes the sex and the drugs... And crazy fans. It really felt like viking-like swedes acted weirder than ever. No respect for the music: The band enters after some fripp solo soundscapes. The do The Power To Believe: A Capella, and in the second between the end of the last line and when Level Five kicks in, some deranged, probably drunk fans screams out with terrible accent: "The Power To Believe!!!". I want to die. Next, Elektrik. The clarinet-guitar intro goes fine, and the band goes through the song until the little pause after the main song and the clarinet-guitar outro. At that second's silence; the applause and whistling fills the theatre and the outro drowns. And then, Dangerous Curves. The little soundscapesy part goes fine, but when the "da-da-da da-da-da da-da-da-da-da-da-da" theme enters, the audience starts clapping along in even fourths. It gets even worse until som guy like me, but even angrier, screams out "Oh My God, stop it you idiots!". This does, luckily, shut the vikings up. Sometimes it feels really bad to be Swedish, hope they ever come back. The should add "No Talking or Applause or any other Noise" to the "No Smoking, Recording and Photos"-banners. /Rikard ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 07:51:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Rikard Grankvist Subject: Fripp Or Belew? Discussion Thanks, wviland@thin-film.com, for a philosophic (and somewhat technically useful) description of the differences between the two. I too am a big fan of Fripp, and prefer him to Belew. I know (I know), this is a repeat of a recent thread (The Fripp solos thread), but I am quite new to KC and especially potent Fripp solos. I am simply asking someone who think they know better to give me a beginners guide to fripp guitar playing... List som solos or something. /Rikard (please, don't edit this out) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 15:24:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Steven Munari Subject: Re: Ade as a showman influenced by FZ/Not getting ET Hello Kcriminals! 1st let me thank Toby & Mike for what they do, & they do all this hard work out of love, no pay.... nothing. I thought Jordan Clifford's post went way overboard in blaming the wrong people because he didn't get ET! I used to use MSN to receive ET, but because MSN is such a shitty provider, for the amount they charge, no more MSN use! It's so jammed with spam & has such problems that my use of them will end at the end of the month. I too lost many ET's that way, but just a polite short email to the right people at ET & everything was fine. Take it easy on these guys at ET!! What's the problem with reading the issues you missed on the Elephant Talk homepage until the problem is fixed? To everyone whom read's ET, & speaks about the great Frank Zappa here. On his birth certificate it say's Frank Vincent Zappa! not Francis or Franklin or Francesco(altho that last one is used in 'jest' I do believe or because of the cd by FZ that bears that name). To poster wviland: I know that Adrian really learned how to be a 'showman' or 'frontman' by playing with the great FZ. So many other great musician's whom got to play with FZ & were really 'shy' to begin with, learned how to loosen up because Frank made or asked 'everyone' whom worked with or for him to do such seemingly outrageous things when they were 1st asked! I've talked to a few & everyone whom performed with FZ was grateful they did crazy things, that FZ asked of them! People like virtouso guitarist Warren Cuccurullo whom didn't think he could sing & had 'stagefright' when it came to playing in front of FZ's large audiences, sooned learned to lose those inhibitions & learned he could sing, & was grateful. Even a guy like Ray White whom is responsible for so much of the lead vocals in FZ's band's in the late 70's & thru out the 80's, was & is a very religious man & at 1st found it so uncomfortable to sing FZ's 'naughty lyric's', soon found Frank's training to be 'priceless' as Frank told him, "It's only word's, and you're entertaining people." Because he almost didn't join the band because of 'word's' in FZ's song's & routine's. Both Ray White & Ike Willis soon found that singing the Zappa song "Nigger Bizness" was a way of disarming that word, & the song & it's lyric's were totally funny & a complete parody of the abhorent music business! Guy's like Terry Bozzio, & Flo & Eddie(tho they were ham's to begin with but became SUPER ham's after working with Frank)& even a guy that's 'shy' today, Vinnie Colauita found doing things Frank wanted made them better performer's! There are many more individual examples of guy's(Even the brilliant percussionist Ruth Underwood found it to be fun to 'work' in a man's world or to be correct, Frank's world!)but I think you get the idea. Every single person i've talked to that played with Frank or whom i've read about that mentions playing with him cannot thank him enough. He was that much of a mentor & great teacher of not only things musicial, but they learned how to look at everything in a different way because of Frank, & became better humans because of him! Well that's it from me. Sorry I don't have more KC related info to talk about. "There are forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers." Don van Vliet ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:12:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Mr Beasty Subject: Mark "Lauren" Gleed NEWS Hello, It seems that Mark "Lauren" Gleed is back ... He recently made guest appearance on a cover song by The Cartoon Factory (www.thecartoonfactoryband.com). The track is available on-line. Mark is said to be putting the final touches on the long awaited new SOMA album "Neverwasneverwillbe" featuring Allan Holdsworth and Tony Levin among others ... ===== http://www.thecartoonfactoryband.com http://www.jauqoiii-xreality.com Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:22:52 -0400 From: Tim Subject: Hot Mail Abuse? > Sorry about not replying to this sooner. > >> First of all I would like to start by saying that if this even appears >> in the next issue of ET i will be amazed. I Havent been able to recieve >> ET for the last 4 months and to TOBY- IM EXTREMELY FRUSTRATED AND >> DISAPOINTED with the service of this newsletter. All i want is to be >> put back on the god damn email list so i dont have to read it off the >> website and so i can respond- theres no reason that i should have >> stopped recieving the email newsletter anyway. PLEASE RESPOND TO ME >> ABOUT THIS!! > > ET Distribution is down to me, not Toby, so kindly direct your rudeness and > abuse this way. Rudeness and abuse? With all due respect, I think you (Mike) should take your own advice. The poor guy never gets an ET, has NO IDEA why, is very frustrated (as he clearly said), and hasn't gotten a response (you yourself start this out by admitting you 'didn't get back to him sooner'). Rather than replying privately with an explanation of the whole Hot Mail issue (which he would never of course have known or would have guessed), you instead publicly hang him out to dry. Why? I think I can speak for many ET readers when I say that, yes, you are right, I have no idea how much work it is to put this together. And when I hear about the work involved, yes, I can appreciate it. But to say: >>One last point, Jordan - when you start *paying* Toby, Dan and me for your ET subscription then you may have some grounds to take us to task for what you think of the 'the service of this newsletter' and what it should be about. Until that time comes - and there is little chance of it ever coming - I would be appreciative if you could learn some manners. is totally out of line. Do you want us to pay you? If so then say so. If not then don't use it as an excuse when someone brings forth a criticism (in this case seemingly well justified) about the newsletter. Don't you think it reasonable that if someone signed up for the newsletter, then never got it, and never got an explanation as to why, that he could actually get a bit frustrated? Sure he could. And he can ask about it. And you can reply to him. But to publicly flog him is in itself rude and abusive, and not very customer friendly (I know, I know, we don't pay you, but I think you know what I mean). And as an ET subscriber I am incredibly appreciative of the work that goes into all of this. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 07:36:21 -0500 From: James Robert McDaniel Subject: ET Distribution >It is not beyond all possibility that some witless wonder with a Hotmail >address has been unable to use the automated administration service to >unsubscribe from the ET mailing list and has chosen to report ET to Hotmail >as a nuisance. If this *is* the case then this may have resulted in all ET >traffic being blocked on Hotmail accounts. Either way, I am guessing >because Hotmail won't speak to us about this. I work for a large company in the S&P 500, and I cannot access the ET Newsletter directly from the website at work. My company has a block on it. To the best of my knowledge, my company does not normally block newsletters. It usually blocks auctions, gaming sites, porn (obviously), sites that promote illegal activity, etc. The reason it lists the ET Newsletter as prohibited: Profanity. I'm not really sure why, but I just thought I would let you know. I don't know if this is a result of my company's individual decision, or if the ET Newsletter has been blackballed by some other internet content evaluation service that was used by my company. This may help to explain the hotmail block...I guess hotmail wants to eliminate the filthy language found here, such as the word "tritone" and various interpretations of ad-libbed lyrics to live performances of "Easy Money." --James McDaniel ------------------------------ End of Elephant Talk Digest #1140 *********************************